sumps

[springer]

What is the advantage of using a sump over a filtration system such as a fluval 404

[shawn lipon]

Many ,many reasons.

just a few main ones
1-space for skimmer,heater, pump ,nitrate reducing resins,carbon etc instead of in tank equipment or canister filter.
2-can reduce need for powerheads that suck power and add heat(can add more gph pump than any fluval would hope to put out)by using a pump such as a mak 4 or similar pump)
3-The overflows/baffles etc in a sump cause the water to spill over picking up important water molicules anding oxygen to a tank.(many benifits to this)
4-by adding a sump you are increasing your water quantity .thus lessoning load.If you have a decent sized sump it can add as much as 30 50 or in some of our cases over 120 gal of water to a system that would normally have only 5-70gal.sumps are not a license to overstock but a sump with a good amount of water will greatly reduce maintanence because it takes longer to foul from overfeeding etc
6-many do-it youself options
7-easier maintenence
many other
some cons to consider
tank will need to be drilled or have a hang on overflow. cost 40 for drilling tank you make the interior dams they can install or buy a quality-Reliable overflow such as a Lifereef for 100-200 $
space under or beside tank or plumbed to a seperate room will be required.

if you would like to see a basic sump 20gal or a super-sump120 gal in action pm me and i can show you 2 ways to do it on the cheap.one is a 30 gal sump on a 10 gal nano less than100$ the other is a 120 gal barrel sump system$300-400 depnding on needs on a 70 gal tank set up .there are many options for sumps such as plastic tupperware to big 65gal plastic barrels or even 1000 gal industrial tanks.the skys the limit.I would never run a salt tank without a sump for many reasons.this is just my opinion pm me for demo

[stinga]

Very well put Shawn!From what I remember you are like the king of sumps..:King: ..I will have to chat with you before I set up my next system!

[Invigor]

i enjoy having a large sump because it lets me get away with feeding like a madman.. only downside I have is it's hard to heat all this water!

[stinga]

Hey John I realize you are on top of your game!But when you upgraded sumps did you place you nw bigger sump on the cold concret of your basement?I stay in the basement and know how cold the floor can get,For any one else how might have done this...Mabey a wooden shipping crate (like at the bottle depot)would work as a good "platfrom"...just another idea:new_infin

[Maverick]

How does this post fit into Site Help & FAQ's ?



Brent

[stinga]

Oh that is simple..Springer is a kindda "new" to the site,Judging by his join date he/she might not know fully how things work around here..:scratch2: ..Thats my theory anyways.:multicolo

[Cutter]

I don't have a sump and my tank works just fine.

[springer]

Sorry if I am on the wrong site but hey guys thanks for the great info it makes alot of sense.

[stinga]

Hey Paul ,me too..and I only have a 20 gal!:silly:

[shawn lipon]

Absolutely,I used canisters,fluval ,magnums, and hang on stuff for many years and I was happy with it.I guess if a tank owner doesnt mind having a heater,powerheads,outlets,extra heat,limited skimmer,uv outlet/inlet,moderate flow,hose ,power cables ,limited biological filter capacity and options, in your tank, canister filters will suffice.I didnt mind I used canisters for first 10 yrs till i saw and read about some advanced tanks and the obvious benefits of a sump.My tank flourished with the change.
My tank is over 4 degrees cooler with over 1000 gph increase in flow.with no bad algea.
In the time it used to take me to clean and change media (10-15 min) on my old magnum canister i can change 3 month supply of carbon,denitrator,floss, all while 40 gal of water is changed automatically without ever puting my hands in tank or the fish ever noticing whats happening and pour myself a drink! Last night i did this during 1 period intermission of flames game!
i would need over 8 canisters,and many powerheads and chiller to get the lack of heat,filter capacity and wave pressure i have with sump.Yes my sump has over twice the water as my tank but i am a lazy,lazy man that chose this way so i could look at my tank instead of work on and worry about it.I average only 30 min of work every 3 months including scraping glass and 30 gal water changes every 3 weeks
To say someone can not have a nice tank without a sump would be inaccurate.But to say sumps provide no benefit over canisters would also be innaccurate.
My biggest gripes about sumps are you will need to disassemble your tank to get it drilled,or you will need reliable hang on overflows(defeats purpose of removing equipment clutter in tank)at over $100 and finding room for the sump.This is only my opinion and judging by the popularity of sumps it seems to be the opinion of others too.I don't have a sump and my tank works just fine.

[jevan23]

In the time it used to take me to clean and change media (10-15 min) on my old magnum canister i can change 3 month supply of carbon,denitrator,floss, all while 40 gal of water is changed automatically without ever puting my hands in tank or the fish ever noticing whats happening and pour myself a drink! Last night i did this during 1 period intermission of flames game!

Well paul, im a lazy man too, and i was interested to know more about what you do to change 40 gal of water automatically? Some sort of autonomous system?:new_borgs

[shawn lipon]

By turning a ballvalve on a manifold water is pumped thru hose directly to drain.On my system i pump for 3min 40 seconds and this is 40 gal removed.I them plug in pump in makeup water barrel to pump in new water.a snap.less than 9 min!

[springer]

Thanks Shawn for taking the time to explain the sump to me. I will change over to a sump but I will wait until the next time I knock my aquarium down and get it drilled. I see many advantages of a sump. Thanks again guys for all the info, sure glad that a site like this one is available.

[Invigor]

Thanks Shawn for taking the time to explain the sump to me. I will change over to a sump but I will wait until the next time I knock my aquarium down and get it drilled. I see many advantages of a sump. Thanks again guys for all the info, sure glad that a site like this one is available.

I got my tank recently drilled and glued in an overflow at glacier glass..total was around $60. I purchased tinted glass for the overflow which was about 10-15 extra..which I think was a waste.

for the bare minimum, it was $25 for them to drill a hole. :yes: and that hole does more flow than I've ever seen in a hang-on overflow.

edit: you might want to learn about "coast to coast" overflows if you drill your tank..in my opinion I think they're quite nifty.

[shawn lipon]

whats "coast to coast"?

[Invigor]

similar idea to cowtown's huge cichlid tank..the overflow is one whole end of a tank, can either be the back or the side...makes for a quiet exit for a LOT of water movement.

this is the best pic I could come up with short-term.

the overflow doesn't necessarily have to be internal..what some people do is have the back pane of glass an inch or two shorter then the other edges of the tank and just have the overflow on the back of the tank..or some have it internally like the one in the pic..overall you get 100% surface skimming out of the deal. and probably no trouble getting 6000gph+ of silent flow given you plumb it properly.

[Ronnie]

John, I have never seen a coast-to coast overflow before, but man - I think they make a ton of sense! In fact, I am pretty sure I dreamt-up one once, (in the middle of a flood nightmare), but I obviously missed out on any patent opportunities.

In terms of sumps generally, I have a couple of comments:

1) I tend to look at extreme examples when analyzing things like this in order to help determine if they would make a difference. Example: what would you expect the water quality, stabilty, etc. of a 5 gallon display tank be with a swimming pool of salt water feeding it? This is the main reason I run a sump.

2) Real life example: it appears Shawn is running a ratio of about 2:1 sump to display, while I unfortunately am running at about 1:3. It looks like Shawn is doing a 15% (30/(120+70)) water change once every 3 months, while I am finding a need to do a 15% water change at least every 3-4 weeks!

Based on water test results, I have concluded the change needed has as much to do with what has been depleted from the water as what has been poluting it. As Shawn mentioned however, space can be a problem. Many of us don't have the room for a 3:1 sump.

3) I find I spend about 3 hours every water change, and am very courious as to how Shawn gets away with only 30 minutes. The water itself doesn't take that long, but by the time you change floss, clean pre-filters and maybe tubes/overflows, skimmer, display and top glass, salt creep, adjust flows/ clean up, etc. I am good for 3 hours!

I find most of this time would be required regardless of water or sump volume.

4) Floss sucks as I find it needs to be changed quite often which is a pain and quite expensive. I believe Shawn is using reusable pads, while Rick M is using neither. I am looking to make a change.

I am also lazy and look forward to comments.

[Tang]

Ron I know this is always a great debate about water changes, water quality and stability. I'm not sure what happens in your system that’s lets you know your missing something (i.e. corals don't look right)?? We little guys (no pun intended) with small tanks and small sumps manage to keep things very stable.



My personal experience was nutrient build up was my leading cause of problems. All the floss, sponges, and other filter pads need a cleaning every 3-4 days to help reduce nutrients. I'm big on water changes, but in the past this only went so far. I think all system have the ability to stabilize with the proper nutrient removal. Why are SPS harder to keep? You need clean water with lots of cal and alk to make them grow. My success or should I say better success was in the past year or so when I began the ozone campaign. You know it works great when the skimmer is only working half time.



I've been complaining to J&L about my new Euro reef and its lack of deep dark skim. J&L says you won't get as much because of your ozone. Your skim will brown in color, just not thick and dark. Water change water looks the same as the dirty water - both clear. I think you still need water changes, but the goal is no longer nutrient reduction - trace element replacement.



My 2 cents



Jamie

[Invigor]

I've been complaining to J&L about my new Euro reef and its lack of deep dark skim. J&L says you won't get as much because of your ozone. Your skim will brown in color, just not thick and dark. Water change water looks the same as the dirty water - both clear. I think you still need water changes, but the goal is no longer nutrient reduction - trace element replacement.


I -think- it was on the red sea website that I read this (yes, I've only read it on the internet and have no personal experience to back this up) but ozonizing your tank will have a "bleaching" effect on your skimmate. This might explain why your skimmate is no longer as dark as it was.

erm, ok I found it in the red sea berlin turbo user's manual under "directions for Ozone use:

II) When ozone is used, the skimmed material in the foam cup is often
colorless, due to the bleaching properties of ozone.

that might explain why your skimmate is lighter, not sure if it changed on you before or after the euroreef, also don't know when you switched on the ozone either.:val:

another thing: I hear some people now are using instant ocean's "upper end" blend reef crystals to eliminate the use of extra additives to replenish trace elements. personally, i find regular IO salt has low Ca and Alk when mixed with ro/di.

ahh all the "I read it" stuff!

[Tang]

Thats good to know John that Red Sea has a similar experience with the berlin Turbo. I would say mine is not colorless, but a brown semi see through skim. It still stinks like a dogs A$$ when you clean the cup.

I do agree that more overall water is a good thing - BIG SUMP. The benefit would be lower nutrient buildup at first, but over a period of time it would also build up to unacceptable levels and cause other problems in the tank.

Jamie

[Cutter]

Well paul, im a lazy man too, and i was interested to know more about what you do to change 40 gal of water automatically? Some sort of autonomous system?:new_borgs



Water Changes? What are those?

Seriously, I only do a water change about every two months lately. When i do I only change about 15G of my 65G tank.

I used to do water changes every week, 5G only, but I've gotten lazy. I haven't noticed any down side to the way I'm doing things right now.

When I get more ambitious again I'll do more water changes.

Paul

[Invigor]

Water Changes? What are those?

Seriously, I only do a water change about every two months lately. When i do I only change about 15G of my 65G tank.

I used to do water changes every week, 5G only, but I've gotten lazy. I haven't noticed any down side to the way I'm doing things right now.

When I get more ambitious again I'll do more water changes.

Paul

30% monthly changes is a nice number to work with.